I was told I have an incredibly narrow + high palate, and would need a palate expander, braces, and a tongue tie release to fix my TMJ grinding and clenching. Are you saying that a rubber mouthguard would help me avoid all of this? I just found you so I'm doing my research
My 8 yr old daughter was in an expander for 5 months and during the last month I saw backwards facial growth and a heaviness in her lower face. I took them out and will let her grow naturally. I really regret it.
i'm interested in helping you with research.... my son and I are the research candidates...... do you have an email so i can give you further details on us?
> "But they're all working on the same flawed principle - mechanical force to push teeth apart."
Does not exactly apply to the MSE. You're right about the bioblock and shwartz(or however you spell that) appliances tho. Those are tooth-borne and can cause flaring and dental problems(from what I've learned) due to tooth root manipulation. I've read on the orthotropics subreddit that the maxilla can expand 1/8 of an mm each day naturally, so if you emulate that, the maxilla should healthily develop, especially if you apply upwards&forwards pressure on it with your tongue. Does that check out in your view?
EDIT2(just this one question): A very slowly employed 3d shwartz(or whatever) appliance would not defy/abuse the soft tissue, correct?
Also, it seems like the MSE is really flawed because of the unnatural, soft-tissue defying speed that is usually employed. Even when slowed, however, there is still a glaring problem: the maxilla was never supposed to expand as a whole. Only the back is supposed to. (https://bit.ly/4i9nu1A+ you may preview where the link takes you)
As that looksmax member said, "the MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is[, causing] the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE[, giving you] something more like this: https://bit.ly/4hws4Wp+"
If there was a way to get that to happen in addition to reviv and a facemask, would your soft-tissue-related concerns be resolved?
Thanks a lot for giving out all this info for free bro.
EDIT: fixed wording + this new text:
I forgot that a facemask isn't even required in the case of strictly posterior expansion. Especially when slowed, the cheekbones would be pushed forward as well as sideways
Also part of this same EDIT:
It looks like if you have 2 MSE-like devices, the issue would be circumvented as well.
(btw, no offence or anything but please don't curse if you decide to reply)
hahaha i'm still trying to figure out what all these edits mean...
i think this is the new GenZ way of changing what you wrote? Maybe im gettin too old.. :)
In any case i think you bring up some good points. I might be wrong about the MSE as you say.. i really havent delved very deep into any of those palate expanders as it's never been something i've ever even considered for myself or any family member.
I take the logic that..
When you get really good at this you start to notice that the body changes/remodels according to a cycle
i do my stretches, it puts pressure on the skull, i relax and the pressure is absorbed by the skull and body. Thus fixing it a bit.
And i just dont see based on what im seeing what a palate expander would do to make that process faster.
And i'd much rather do it the 'natural way' without the expander because i see how it literally improves everything else.. neurology, cognitive function etc
> "i think this is the new GenZ way of changing what you wrote?"
I guess I've spent too much time on reddit...sorry lol
> "When you get really good at this you start to notice that the body changes/remodels according to a cycle...And i'd much rather do it the 'natural way' without the expander because i see how it literally improves everything else"
The importance of expanding the posterior nasal spine equally as the anterior one is what Dr. Kasey Li does with his EASE (Endoscopically Assisted Skeletal Expansion) technique. He makes a cut all the way from the anterior to the posteriot spine so that equal paralel expansion can happen. He says it is mainly to improve nasal breathing and that it is far superior to MSE/MARPE, FME... I hear he charges 30K $ for that. 😁
I just completed a MARPE for sleep apnea. I am indeed sleeping better and breathing dramatically better through my nose. Am I doomed? Is there anything I can do? Not sure about my resulting curve of spee, as I’m still in braces to fix. Would appreciate any pointers you might have! Thanks much
Hi, I think things will likely structurally decline in the coming years.
Doing this expansion stuff to fix sleep apnea is a very bad way to do it in my view. It's like you're forcing the space for breathing a bit bigger but at the expensve of a lot of other things in following years.
I would wear a simple rubber mouthguard to sleep and a bit during the day. And try to get off the braces sooner than later as the mouthguard will move the teeth and just reverse whatever the braces is currently doing
So basically it’s have crooked teeth and health or straight teeth and sickness in your opinion? I’m intrigued by your perspective and appreciate the response!
I see now in the screenshot that she commented that her facial pain, clenching and bruxism had disappeared, which is my main goal. So encouraging. Thanks for this glimmer of hope Ken. I hope to be the next success story. 🙂
So are you saying crooked teeth shouldn’t be corrected? Our daughter, now 40, had a high narrow plate, crooked teeth, snored as a child and couldn’t breath out of her nose. We did use a palate expander along with braces and it seemed to help. Her spine is straight and she hasn’t lost any height.
You recommend using the myobrace a1 to help, does using a firmer myobrace (such as a2,a3) or even wider one ( t1,t2 etc) still have a positive effect or will it be negative?
Thanks Kenny another great post 👍
I was told I have an incredibly narrow + high palate, and would need a palate expander, braces, and a tongue tie release to fix my TMJ grinding and clenching. Are you saying that a rubber mouthguard would help me avoid all of this? I just found you so I'm doing my research
yes .. do not do the palate expander and braces for sure. I wrote articles on that so make sure u check them out
My 8 yr old daughter was in an expander for 5 months and during the last month I saw backwards facial growth and a heaviness in her lower face. I took them out and will let her grow naturally. I really regret it.
What do you recommend for her crooked teeth?
flat composite and/or mouthguard
i wrote this earlier https://reviv.substack.com/p/the-approach-to-take-for-kids
Thanks so much
If it forces the molars back upward a bit, does that encourage upward, forward growth?
But if the front teeth come down, wouldn’t that elongate the face?
i'm interested in helping you with research.... my son and I are the research candidates...... do you have an email so i can give you further details on us?
sure.. kenny516@gmail.com
Any idea how palate expanders compare to Advanced Lightwire? Are they just different routes to the same bad end?
ALF is better than palatal expander for sure.
But still useless in my book. i wrote https://substack.com/@yarrow549425/note/c-79794242
People that get results from alf almost always get it because of the composite ‘turbos’ that are adding vertical and unlocking the bite
Great article man
> "But they're all working on the same flawed principle - mechanical force to push teeth apart."
Does not exactly apply to the MSE. You're right about the bioblock and shwartz(or however you spell that) appliances tho. Those are tooth-borne and can cause flaring and dental problems(from what I've learned) due to tooth root manipulation. I've read on the orthotropics subreddit that the maxilla can expand 1/8 of an mm each day naturally, so if you emulate that, the maxilla should healthily develop, especially if you apply upwards&forwards pressure on it with your tongue. Does that check out in your view?
EDIT2(just this one question): A very slowly employed 3d shwartz(or whatever) appliance would not defy/abuse the soft tissue, correct?
Also, it seems like the MSE is really flawed because of the unnatural, soft-tissue defying speed that is usually employed. Even when slowed, however, there is still a glaring problem: the maxilla was never supposed to expand as a whole. Only the back is supposed to. (https://bit.ly/4i9nu1A+ you may preview where the link takes you)
As that looksmax member said, "the MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is[, causing] the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE[, giving you] something more like this: https://bit.ly/4hws4Wp+"
If there was a way to get that to happen in addition to reviv and a facemask, would your soft-tissue-related concerns be resolved?
Thanks a lot for giving out all this info for free bro.
EDIT: fixed wording + this new text:
I forgot that a facemask isn't even required in the case of strictly posterior expansion. Especially when slowed, the cheekbones would be pushed forward as well as sideways
Also part of this same EDIT:
It looks like if you have 2 MSE-like devices, the issue would be circumvented as well.
(btw, no offence or anything but please don't curse if you decide to reply)
hahaha i'm still trying to figure out what all these edits mean...
i think this is the new GenZ way of changing what you wrote? Maybe im gettin too old.. :)
In any case i think you bring up some good points. I might be wrong about the MSE as you say.. i really havent delved very deep into any of those palate expanders as it's never been something i've ever even considered for myself or any family member.
I take the logic that..
When you get really good at this you start to notice that the body changes/remodels according to a cycle
i do my stretches, it puts pressure on the skull, i relax and the pressure is absorbed by the skull and body. Thus fixing it a bit.
And i just dont see based on what im seeing what a palate expander would do to make that process faster.
And i'd much rather do it the 'natural way' without the expander because i see how it literally improves everything else.. neurology, cognitive function etc
> "i think this is the new GenZ way of changing what you wrote?"
I guess I've spent too much time on reddit...sorry lol
> "When you get really good at this you start to notice that the body changes/remodels according to a cycle...And i'd much rather do it the 'natural way' without the expander because i see how it literally improves everything else"
Yeah that makes sense. Thanks a lot
The importance of expanding the posterior nasal spine equally as the anterior one is what Dr. Kasey Li does with his EASE (Endoscopically Assisted Skeletal Expansion) technique. He makes a cut all the way from the anterior to the posteriot spine so that equal paralel expansion can happen. He says it is mainly to improve nasal breathing and that it is far superior to MSE/MARPE, FME... I hear he charges 30K $ for that. 😁
I just completed a MARPE for sleep apnea. I am indeed sleeping better and breathing dramatically better through my nose. Am I doomed? Is there anything I can do? Not sure about my resulting curve of spee, as I’m still in braces to fix. Would appreciate any pointers you might have! Thanks much
Hi, I think things will likely structurally decline in the coming years.
Doing this expansion stuff to fix sleep apnea is a very bad way to do it in my view. It's like you're forcing the space for breathing a bit bigger but at the expensve of a lot of other things in following years.
I would wear a simple rubber mouthguard to sleep and a bit during the day. And try to get off the braces sooner than later as the mouthguard will move the teeth and just reverse whatever the braces is currently doing
So basically it’s have crooked teeth and health or straight teeth and sickness in your opinion? I’m intrigued by your perspective and appreciate the response!
i dont think the teeth will move to a 'worse' position... as things will expand outwards with the mouthguard.
And if u stick with this long enough.. the palate expands naturally and you will have all your teeth in a nice straight line.
So while it might be a slight tradeoff in the short term.. it is win win in the long term.
This is change in teeth in less than a year of active use of a rubber mouthguard (the myobrace): https://share.cleanshot.com/ggc2yfGJ
I see now in the screenshot that she commented that her facial pain, clenching and bruxism had disappeared, which is my main goal. So encouraging. Thanks for this glimmer of hope Ken. I hope to be the next success story. 🙂
Ah gotcha. Thanks! I’ll look into it.
So are you saying crooked teeth shouldn’t be corrected? Our daughter, now 40, had a high narrow plate, crooked teeth, snored as a child and couldn’t breath out of her nose. We did use a palate expander along with braces and it seemed to help. Her spine is straight and she hasn’t lost any height.
I'm saying crooked teeth should be corrected using natural expansive effects like simply using a rubber mouthguard.
I talk about this here: https://reviv.substack.com/p/how-to-solve-the-problem
If your daughter is fine.. than no need to bother her.
Generally i'd be surprised if she visually didnt age a bit faster than normal if she used a palate expander.
But anyway.. if she's fine.. dont worry.
You recommend using the myobrace a1 to help, does using a firmer myobrace (such as a2,a3) or even wider one ( t1,t2 etc) still have a positive effect or will it be negative?
hi.. i think any of those are fine.
Myobrace is available on aliexpress.
I offer a cheaper appliance for $25 (incl shipping) on www.getreviv.com
Are braces okay for kids though like around 13?
no. They are never ok.
The skull is covered by soft tissue that u can think of like a balloon.
You need to inflate the balloon to make more space for teeth to be straight.
Moving things around with braces doesnt inflate the balloon... and rather the balloon will almost always deflate a bit during/after.
Come back with visual evidence of a few case reports to prove your hypothesis. All you are doing now is scaring and confusing people.
I know quite a number of people that were damaged by palate expanders but i'm not going to plaster their pics on the internet.
And if people want evidence they can find these stories written by the people themselves on various TMJ groups on Facebook and the TMJ subreddit.
But i've also referrenced 'hard evidence'. Mike mew's court case: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65195207
6-yr old boy goes into 'seizure-like episodes' after a Biobloc (a palate expander) was used.