I know Ken, you are referring to nose breathing vs mouth-breathing at mid aged child (your son) and mostly adults.
Yet I personally believe you would still discover in the findings of George Caitlin who recorded data found thru his early 1800s travels among indigenous North American & some South American tribes, that their culture of training “new born” infants to nose breath had long-lasting effect on the permanent structure of the Indian teeth (straight) and skull (beautifully shaped) as well as major LACK of cavities and gum disease.
From infancy, this culture of forcing nose breathing that retained such beautiful structure and mouth health throughout adulthood CANNOT be discounted.
Perhaps in the case of your boy, having the issues in his youth that were fixed via composite and mouthguard et all, were solutions that - if born to indigenous tribes in centuries before ours, might not have even occurred based on the non-scientific documented findings and extensive witnessing of oral health and beautiful teeth and jaw / skull structure in Indian tribes all over the Americas.
We cant discount this cause and effect of trained nose breathing “from newborn age”.
i still need to make my way through the book you sent. I did start it :)
And it sounds like there are some interesting cases/examples that prove the power of nose breathing.
It can definitely be that my attempts with my son were not the right approach but there are other methods/cases where it works well.
It is still a bit of a black box to me around why teeth extrude/develop better for some kids then others. As there are a multitude of factors that seem to play a role.
I have some downtime this week so gonna try to make it thru the book! And happy to change my stance if there is good examples that are to the contrary of what ive written here.
"We cant discount this cause and effect of trained nose breathing “from newborn age”. "
From the work of Dr. John Witzig the father of Functional Orthopedics, malocclusion is genetics from what i remember. It means, you are either born with malocclusion or you are not. The good news is that this is treatable at an early age. That's why i believe at the age of 7, fjo practitioners recommend you come in for a check up and see your child's development. So why some have malocclusion and some don't? that i don't know.
In order for you to claim that there is a direct cause and effect, you have to put two kids, one with malocclusion and one that doesn't, train the one with malocclusion and see this kid correct the malocclusion with nose breathing. (what nose breathing technique?) If you don't have that, then you can not claim direct cause and effect. From what i understand, treating malocclusion can only be with by opening the arch, moving the teeth, and increase dental height (increasing vertical). The nose breathing technique does this?
Ive pretty much completely corrected my son's maloclussion by having composite on his height for the last 3 years.
Also the US dentist who'd been doing this on kids for over a decade said he'd helped lots of kids with this.
And so i dont think its genetic. But wtih kids i think a multitude of factors play a role.. primary of which is the structure of their mother. This is what i learned from delving into osteopathy years ago.
I wonder if my experience ties in with what you're saying here, Ken. I had moderate scoliosis when my son was born and had probably broken my tailbone around the time I got pregnant. I'm guessing I was pretty locked up. I had a home birth with him which was very difficult. He had a ton of head molding making the left side of his head pointy at first. Somehow he's got perfect vision AND gotten all of his teeth in, including his wisdom teeth (better on both counts than either my husband or myself -- he's 28 now). The lower wisdom teeth haven't totally erupted -- they aim slightly to the outside. I'm guessing all four of them should have more height, as well. I've convinced him, for now, to keep them by sharing my own dental/orthodontic horror stories. Anyway, as he was growing up I noticed one shoulder slightly higher than the other and I also notice that he has a slight stoop and should probably be a little taller.
i think we are arguing over definitions. My point is that John Witzig found that people are born with malocclusion. Is there another definition for that?
My main point is people are born with maloclussion but that doesnt make it genetic.
I've talked about this in a past post but i forget which one.
Basically i visited Dr. Jim Jecmen 2x in missouri. He (to my knowledge) is considered one of the best living osteopaths and has the unique aspect of being a dentist/orthodontist at the same time.
But he worked on newborns for decades.
And so he told me how he could feel a newborn's skull and immediately tell what compensations the mother had. Plus he could accurately predict what malocclusions the child would have as a result.
And if newborn he felt he could fix most of it but later on it osteopathy alone would be less effective.
It sounded believable and so i have a feeling this is very close to how it works.
I think you have a problem with the word genetics because you don't want to take responsibility. lol. Your kid has some of your feature and some of your wife's feature. That's genetics. But what makes you think he doesn't have your heart or lungs or stomach? If you drink too much, smoke too much, they will impact those organs. And in turn your kid will have these bad organs. It's called hereditary descent. So if you are going to eat all the crap in the world, your kid is going to eat all the crap in the world. lol. You need to take some responsibility brother. :)
I looked up jim (james?) jecmen in missouri. He was sued in 2001. LOL. He does cranial therapy? From your experience, does cranial therapy help with tmj? lol. I will answer that for you. NO!
I was having trouble with how to wear & IF I could fall asleep I found I was breathing through the holes in the device causing it to dry out & stick to my teeth UGH. Then by chance I settled into the correct position so I wasn’t mouth breathing anymore. I still have difficulty sleeping with it & my tongue still gets caught in the back left with a pinching effect. Can’t figure what causes this! Not gonna wear those clip ons bc they look like a choking hazard. Is there a correct placement of the tongue when wearing????
Very interesting, as always! My observations are that asthmatics are often mouth breathers, and they usually suffer far more respiratory and sinus viruses and allergies. One of the natural treatments I used to get rid of my asthma was correct breathing - through the nose powered by the diaphragm. My asthma diminished and is now all but gone. I'm sure it was the combination of many techniques, but I felt that nose breathing was a big factor. So I would encourage people - especially children - to breath through the nose as much as possible.
I don't take issue with your causal arguments. However I think nose breathing is preferred for lungs and oral health. So while your solution will result in long-term positive change, as an interim measure, avoiding mouth-breathing has significant benefits. I recognize that may not be your experience, but it is mine.
I just wonder if you will anyway experience the same benefit or even more after you structurally fix the lungs and space around it.
I breathe much better than i used to and probably hold my breath for far longer (ie. prob lung capacity has increased) because of these structural changes which have triggered this dry cough in which i feel like i've been coughing stuff out of my lungs for weeks.
"btw I wouldn't judge a medical professional based on whether they get sued..."
I judged Jim (James?) Jecmen based on the facts of the case. It's Hampton v. Jecmen (2001) if you care to read it. Based on the facts, he wasn't board certified orthodontist, nor was he a doctor of medicine or chiropractic when he treated her. lol. Yet he did both. Cranial therapy does not work for tmj. I think you know this fact.
"The dentists that do extractions are pretty much unsueable b/c that is considered 'standard of care' whereas dentists that try to avoid extractions and do things like ALF which is much gentler end up getting sued."
Using 'standard of care' to protect liability, is that similar to qualify immunity? The courts just throw qualify immunity cases out because there is no precedent? i am not a legal scholar so i don't know. But there is a 1987 court case (Brimm v. Malloy) involving tmj. And yes John Witzig was the expert witness for the plaintiff. My opinion is that 'standard of care' means nothing. They can practice however they want to practice. The jury decides if they're standard of care is good or not.
I have a question about dental hygiene. Is it really necessary to brush them twice every day? I happen to think that's excessive. My whole life, I've only ever brushed them once every two or three days, and I'm fine. In 32 years, I've only had three fillings.
I think it depends on the structure of your teeth. I had 1 cavity for about the first 40 yrs of my life and was brushing 2x per day.. then when i did the OSB technique in 2018 they artificially changed the surface of all my teeth with composite.
I brushed 5x a day and flossed 3x because stuff got stuck in my teeth constantly... and regardless had 3 small cavities in a span of 2 months.
So i removed all that crap from my teeth after the first 2 months.
I know Ken, you are referring to nose breathing vs mouth-breathing at mid aged child (your son) and mostly adults.
Yet I personally believe you would still discover in the findings of George Caitlin who recorded data found thru his early 1800s travels among indigenous North American & some South American tribes, that their culture of training “new born” infants to nose breath had long-lasting effect on the permanent structure of the Indian teeth (straight) and skull (beautifully shaped) as well as major LACK of cavities and gum disease.
From infancy, this culture of forcing nose breathing that retained such beautiful structure and mouth health throughout adulthood CANNOT be discounted.
Perhaps in the case of your boy, having the issues in his youth that were fixed via composite and mouthguard et all, were solutions that - if born to indigenous tribes in centuries before ours, might not have even occurred based on the non-scientific documented findings and extensive witnessing of oral health and beautiful teeth and jaw / skull structure in Indian tribes all over the Americas.
We cant discount this cause and effect of trained nose breathing “from newborn age”.
Interesting..thank you.
i still need to make my way through the book you sent. I did start it :)
And it sounds like there are some interesting cases/examples that prove the power of nose breathing.
It can definitely be that my attempts with my son were not the right approach but there are other methods/cases where it works well.
It is still a bit of a black box to me around why teeth extrude/develop better for some kids then others. As there are a multitude of factors that seem to play a role.
I have some downtime this week so gonna try to make it thru the book! And happy to change my stance if there is good examples that are to the contrary of what ive written here.
Hi Ken, do you think wearing a rubber guard can extrude teeth in adults as well or only younger kids who are still developing?
Yes i think teeth extrude as adults too. Some dentists even apply this to patients
My Reviv is making my front teeth look bigger, which I'm excited about. It looks and feels like it's pushing my gums up!
"We cant discount this cause and effect of trained nose breathing “from newborn age”. "
From the work of Dr. John Witzig the father of Functional Orthopedics, malocclusion is genetics from what i remember. It means, you are either born with malocclusion or you are not. The good news is that this is treatable at an early age. That's why i believe at the age of 7, fjo practitioners recommend you come in for a check up and see your child's development. So why some have malocclusion and some don't? that i don't know.
In order for you to claim that there is a direct cause and effect, you have to put two kids, one with malocclusion and one that doesn't, train the one with malocclusion and see this kid correct the malocclusion with nose breathing. (what nose breathing technique?) If you don't have that, then you can not claim direct cause and effect. From what i understand, treating malocclusion can only be with by opening the arch, moving the teeth, and increase dental height (increasing vertical). The nose breathing technique does this?
Ive pretty much completely corrected my son's maloclussion by having composite on his height for the last 3 years.
Also the US dentist who'd been doing this on kids for over a decade said he'd helped lots of kids with this.
And so i dont think its genetic. But wtih kids i think a multitude of factors play a role.. primary of which is the structure of their mother. This is what i learned from delving into osteopathy years ago.
I wonder if my experience ties in with what you're saying here, Ken. I had moderate scoliosis when my son was born and had probably broken my tailbone around the time I got pregnant. I'm guessing I was pretty locked up. I had a home birth with him which was very difficult. He had a ton of head molding making the left side of his head pointy at first. Somehow he's got perfect vision AND gotten all of his teeth in, including his wisdom teeth (better on both counts than either my husband or myself -- he's 28 now). The lower wisdom teeth haven't totally erupted -- they aim slightly to the outside. I'm guessing all four of them should have more height, as well. I've convinced him, for now, to keep them by sharing my own dental/orthodontic horror stories. Anyway, as he was growing up I noticed one shoulder slightly higher than the other and I also notice that he has a slight stoop and should probably be a little taller.
yes this aligns with what the osteopath jim jecmen told me back in 2018.. the mother's compensations can be felt in baby's skull and body
i think we are arguing over definitions. My point is that John Witzig found that people are born with malocclusion. Is there another definition for that?
Yes, malocclusion is very treatable as i've said.
My main point is people are born with maloclussion but that doesnt make it genetic.
I've talked about this in a past post but i forget which one.
Basically i visited Dr. Jim Jecmen 2x in missouri. He (to my knowledge) is considered one of the best living osteopaths and has the unique aspect of being a dentist/orthodontist at the same time.
But he worked on newborns for decades.
And so he told me how he could feel a newborn's skull and immediately tell what compensations the mother had. Plus he could accurately predict what malocclusions the child would have as a result.
And if newborn he felt he could fix most of it but later on it osteopathy alone would be less effective.
It sounded believable and so i have a feeling this is very close to how it works.
I think you have a problem with the word genetics because you don't want to take responsibility. lol. Your kid has some of your feature and some of your wife's feature. That's genetics. But what makes you think he doesn't have your heart or lungs or stomach? If you drink too much, smoke too much, they will impact those organs. And in turn your kid will have these bad organs. It's called hereditary descent. So if you are going to eat all the crap in the world, your kid is going to eat all the crap in the world. lol. You need to take some responsibility brother. :)
I looked up jim (james?) jecmen in missouri. He was sued in 2001. LOL. He does cranial therapy? From your experience, does cranial therapy help with tmj? lol. I will answer that for you. NO!
Andrew. you win. you are right. I no longer have any interest in arguing with you.
Enjoy your victory and let me get back to work helping people.
Trying to wear the mouth guard but it is pinching the tongue in back of left side. What to do? Very annoying so I end up having to take it out.????
yes things like this will happen as thing stretch.
Just take breaks and try making and wearing the polymorph clipons that i talk about in the community.
Just need polymorph (~$10 on amazon)
ill send u a small instruction video i made
Which is what???
i sent the video in the substack direct messages some days back... did u see that?
I was having trouble with how to wear & IF I could fall asleep I found I was breathing through the holes in the device causing it to dry out & stick to my teeth UGH. Then by chance I settled into the correct position so I wasn’t mouth breathing anymore. I still have difficulty sleeping with it & my tongue still gets caught in the back left with a pinching effect. Can’t figure what causes this! Not gonna wear those clip ons bc they look like a choking hazard. Is there a correct placement of the tongue when wearing????
if clipons are made well they are pretty snug on the teeth but understand your fear.
The pinching effect is likely the soft tissue stretching. I used to feel it a lot in the early days and it goes when the stretching finishes.
Tongue should sit on the tongue tag
Very interesting, as always! My observations are that asthmatics are often mouth breathers, and they usually suffer far more respiratory and sinus viruses and allergies. One of the natural treatments I used to get rid of my asthma was correct breathing - through the nose powered by the diaphragm. My asthma diminished and is now all but gone. I'm sure it was the combination of many techniques, but I felt that nose breathing was a big factor. So I would encourage people - especially children - to breath through the nose as much as possible.
Yes.. i think you make an important point.
I think there are a number of health benefits to nosebreathing and the better filtering of air, etc.
My point in this article is specifically about whether mouthbreathing is somehow a cause of biomechanical collapse, which i dont think is the case.
Merry Christmas 🎄🎁🙌!
Thank you! Merry Xmas!!
I absolutely agree and another great post👍
Happy Christmas everyone
typo: "Taping his mouth shut or forcing him to wear appliances that tried to encourage mouthbreathing. It did absolutely nothing." ["discourage"]
ah yes fixed...thx
That sounds like child abuse
haha sometimes it felt like it....
I don't take issue with your causal arguments. However I think nose breathing is preferred for lungs and oral health. So while your solution will result in long-term positive change, as an interim measure, avoiding mouth-breathing has significant benefits. I recognize that may not be your experience, but it is mine.
Yes i know some folks say that this is their experience and i dont doubt you or them.
One thing i would say however is that when you experience the structural change around the lungs and they clear as i discuss in this article
https://reviv.substack.com/p/my-theory-on-the-death-of-susan-wojcicki
I just wonder if you will anyway experience the same benefit or even more after you structurally fix the lungs and space around it.
I breathe much better than i used to and probably hold my breath for far longer (ie. prob lung capacity has increased) because of these structural changes which have triggered this dry cough in which i feel like i've been coughing stuff out of my lungs for weeks.
"btw I wouldn't judge a medical professional based on whether they get sued..."
I judged Jim (James?) Jecmen based on the facts of the case. It's Hampton v. Jecmen (2001) if you care to read it. Based on the facts, he wasn't board certified orthodontist, nor was he a doctor of medicine or chiropractic when he treated her. lol. Yet he did both. Cranial therapy does not work for tmj. I think you know this fact.
"The dentists that do extractions are pretty much unsueable b/c that is considered 'standard of care' whereas dentists that try to avoid extractions and do things like ALF which is much gentler end up getting sued."
Using 'standard of care' to protect liability, is that similar to qualify immunity? The courts just throw qualify immunity cases out because there is no precedent? i am not a legal scholar so i don't know. But there is a 1987 court case (Brimm v. Malloy) involving tmj. And yes John Witzig was the expert witness for the plaintiff. My opinion is that 'standard of care' means nothing. They can practice however they want to practice. The jury decides if they're standard of care is good or not.
The t in tmj stands temporal
You really are a bit simple Andrew
I have a question about dental hygiene. Is it really necessary to brush them twice every day? I happen to think that's excessive. My whole life, I've only ever brushed them once every two or three days, and I'm fine. In 32 years, I've only had three fillings.
I think it depends on the structure of your teeth. I had 1 cavity for about the first 40 yrs of my life and was brushing 2x per day.. then when i did the OSB technique in 2018 they artificially changed the surface of all my teeth with composite.
I brushed 5x a day and flossed 3x because stuff got stuck in my teeth constantly... and regardless had 3 small cavities in a span of 2 months.
So i removed all that crap from my teeth after the first 2 months.
Structure drives dental hygiene.